Two reminders here: This is the Comic Book Collectors Club so my reviews are for the converted, those who read and enjoy comics, not necessarily for the general public who knows nothing of these characters.
There are no spoilers here. I will remind people, however, that many of the Super-Hero movies (Both Marvel and DC) . . .
The Comic Book Collectors Club is devoted to building a place to read, share, and discuss comics online. One of our goals is to use the online medium to make comics accessible to more readers and preserve the comic collecting tradition for future generations. Comics are getting more and more expensive, driven by several factors.
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Today comics are a commodity, tied to intellectual property rights underpinning multi-billion-dollar movie franchises. Movie and cartoon spinoffs have become highly profitable, but the printed product is struggling to survive. Thanks to four decades of steady inflation and paper shortages, new issues cost 3 or 4 dollars apiece.
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Recalling the origin of Thanos in an interview about The Avengers for the Los Angeles Times, Jim Starlin said:
Thanos came to me while I was taking a psychology class in college after coming out of the service; the ol’ Thanos/Eros concept. I had him sort of roughed out before I ever started working at Marvel. When editor Roy Thomas asked me to do a fill-in Iron Man, I decided to add him to the mix. I showed some character sketches I had of the character to Roy, he asked if I could perhaps bulk up Thanos some and then let me run with it. Mike Friedrich then dialogued the issue. As time went on, Thanos just sort of grew organically on his own. Not sure where his loving Death came from. At the time I was recently out of the service and rather messed up. Hard to remember what was going through my head back then.
I’d like to add a few notes to supplement Starlin’s memory, if I may:
From Freud to Thanos
The “ol’ Thanos/Eros concept” is actually the old Thanatos/Eros concept. Thanatos was the Greek word for “death” and the name of a Titan described by Hesiod and Homer as one of the twin sons of the gods of Night and Darkness. The Romans referred to Thanatos as Mors, Letus, or sometimes Orcus, a name that will be familiar to players of Dungeons & Dragons, where Orcus’ realm is named “Thanatos: the Belly of Death.”
The term thanatos was adopted by Freud’s student Wilhelm Stekel. Stekel used it to refer to a theory Freud had proposed in 1920 about a self-destructive “death instinct” (Todestrieb). Freud postulated that the death instinct stood in opposition to the life-seeking libidinal instinct he sometimes called Eros, borrowing the Greek name for Cupid. It should be noted that like most things Freud claimed, there was no experimental evidence to support the thanatos theory, and professionals remain skeptical of its validity. Captain America and Spider-Man are among those who have taken issue with Freud over this.
In any case, Freud’s followers introduced Stekel’s concept of thanatos to pop culture, where it fueled fictional explorations of psychoanalysis. Starlin’s “Thanos” is evidently an elision of “Thanatos.” Thanos first appeared in Iron Man #55 (February 1973) along with a sibling named Eros of Titan, also known as Starfox.
Over two years earlier, DC’s Forever People #1 (March 1971), written and drawn by Jack Kirby, had introduced Darkseid’s obsession with an ultimate weapon called the Anti-Life Equation.
Darkseid’s influence on Thanos was confirmed by Starlin in an interview with Brian Cronin for the June 24, 2010 edition of Comic Book Legends Revealed, where Starlin supplied a few details about the genesis of the character:
Kirby had done the New Gods, which I thought was terrific. He was over at DC at the time. I came up with some things that were inspired by that. You’d think that Thanos was inspired by Darkseid, but that was not the case when I showed up. In my first Thanos drawings, if he looked like anybody, it was Metron. I had all these different gods and things I wanted to do, which became Thanos and the Titans. Roy took one look at the guy in the Metron-like chair and said: “Beef him up! If you’re going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!”
Kirby himself may have been borrowing here from Freud, whose influence appears elsewhere in New Gods. An example is the Oedipal conflict between Orion and Darkseid. Whatever the story there, Darkseid’s quest for the Anti-Life Equation was a clear predecessor for Thanos’ infatuation with Death.
By now many of you know about the mid-credit scene at the end of the Avengers movie. If you haven’t seen it yet I won’t spoil it for you, but after the opening week’s box office success, it should come as no surprise that one or more sequels is a strong likelihood. (And so far all of you who have voted in our poll have said you’d like to see a sequel.) The mid-credit scene gives some hint of the comic book storylines that will most likely form the basis of the first sequel. What other storylines would make good sequels?
I’ve added a poll to the right sidebar listing some of the major Avengers storylines that have featured prominently in the comics and been adapted into previous animated treatments. Previous Avengers adaptations have included the 1999-2000 cartoon The Avengers: United They Stand, the Lionsgate Ultimate Avengers films, and the current ongoing Disney series The Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes. In the poll I’ve listed some of the storylines that have been floated in these earlier adaptations, along with a few other prominent ones from the comic:
The Kree-Skrull War
The Avengers vs. Hulk
Avengers with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver vs. Magneto
I like a few of these for their potential to introduce new characters and cross over with other Marvel movie franchises such as X-Men and Fantastic Four. Some of the other ones could make for great drama and action. I like the Kree-Skrull War and the House of M arc for the big battle scene possibilities.
Which of these do you think might make good sequels? Can you think of any other storylines that might make good sequels? Vote in the poll on the right sidebar, and if you have any additional comments, add them below and let us know what you’d like to see.
Two reminders here: This is the Comic Book Collectors Club so my reviews are for the converted, those who read and enjoy comics, not necessarily for the general public who knows nothing of these characters.
There are no spoilers here. I will remind people, however, that many of the Super-Hero movies (Both Marvel and DC) have scenes during and after the credits and you should stay to see them. The Avengers follows that new tradition.
This is one damn good movie, I enjoyed every minute of it. From beginning to end you say “wow!” My favorite comic book movies were the Richard Donner Superman and his version of Superman II. This is up there with them. I give it an A+.
Of course, the Avengers features the super-heroes of the last few Marvel movies: Thor, Captain America, Iron Man and the Hulk. Clint Barton as Hawkeye, the Black Widow and Nick Fury, are also here.
The major plot line carries over from the Thor movie. Loki comes to Earth (just as he did in Avengers #1) and causes an event so big that the heroes have to unite to save him. The event features him trying to gain custody and control of the Cosmic Cube, which is a cross-over from the plot of the Captain America movie (and several Captain America comics).
One of the strongest attractions of this movie is that you did NOT have to see these other movies to completely understand what was going on. And rather than take a huge amount of time showing the origins of all the characters, their origins and powers were just simply explained, bring everyone up to date, quickly.
Robert Downey Jr. is so perfect and appealing for the role of “leader” and Iron Man that there is a danger of this becoming Iron Man III, especially when the other heroes, so as Thor, played by Chris Hemsworth arrive a bit late. But as strong as Downey is, director Josh Whedon seems to have carefully balanced the scenes with Chris Evans (Captain America) and especially Mark Ruffalo (Bruce Banner and the Hulk) so well that Downey helps bring out the best, and inner truths of these characters. And boy does Evans look like Kirby’s Cap.
The Hulk is perhaps the most complex and trickiest of these characters to portray and Ruffalo is the fourth actor (or fifth if you count Bill Bixby) to play him. Ruffalo’s Hulk far exceeded my expectations for a number of reasons. The Hulk in this movie is a supporting character, while Banner is more than that. Whedon plays with the audience, he knows you know about the Hulk, so much is handled with great fun and humor. The Hulk finally looks like Banner and you can believe the two entities are the same man.
Scarlett Johansson and Jeremy Renner play the non-super members of the Avengers. But as in the comics, their participation is essential for the team’s success.
I was surprised to discover that the beautiful and talented Gwyneth Paltrow is in the movie. She has a long scene with Tony Stark and agent Coulson who is played with great comic timing by Clark Gregg. This scene is important because it adds great depth all the characters involved. (Ms. Paltrow was in the movie Sky Captain, which copied the S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier and gave Angela Jolie the role of a spy leader with an eye-patch, like Nick Fury’s, in 2004.)
Samuel Jackson was wonderful and gives a strong performance. If I have one small objection to the movie it is simply that this character faces ethical choices that have become typical, if not formula, to leaders of law enforcement.
I am saving some of the best for last. Tom Hiddleston, in his second movie as Loki, just nails the character. He is delightful wonderfully cruel, devious, tricky and gives a simply powerful and memorable performance as an actor. He takes us through the entire movie.
In the past, many movies based on comics had weak writers, weak actors and weak production. Not so here. This is a grand cast, a great director, first class production, with great writing and special effects.
In the most exciting scene all the heroes line up and prepare for battle a tear came to my eyes. Really. My only thought was: “I wish Jack Kirby and Don Heck were here to see this.” Heck was responsible for Iron Man, Black Widow and Hawkeye; Kirby for Thor, Hulk, Nick Fury, Loki and, of course Captain America. I am glad that Lee and Lieber, Ayers and Sinnott, are able to see what they wrote and drew on screen.
The era of my comics is long over. The creativity and originality, the artists and writers, are forever gone, and, though I never discuss it, you don’t know how sad that makes me feel. While I can see bits and pieces of the past on the silver screen, I urge everyone one here to celebrate those who we still have left and just enjoy those comics. We shall not see their like again.
This movie will be a big hit. My theatre was swamped with people and had four rooms showing the movie, one in Imax, two in 3D and one “regular.”
I saw the movie in Imax 3D. The 3D was done right and added to the picture and did not detract in the no-action sequences. If I now have any problem with the Imax theatres is that the sound level is too high and I leave the theatres with my ears buzzing.
I want to discuss this movie more with you, but I don’t want to give anything away. So we will wait until the DVD comes out. Go, enjoy and let us know what you think.
On first glance, there are three major characters in the Marvel Universe that should not be black: The Hulk, the Silver Surfer and Nick Fury.
I use the term “black” and not African-American” in science fiction for very simple reasons. The Black Panther is not American; he is African so the term “American” should not be used here. Also, black characters from other planets do NOT have African roots so the term would not be correct here either. In sci fi we often do not know the “origins” of many characters.
Sgt. Fury, was a unique character in a unique series. At a time of the civil rights movement, Lee and Kirby presented ordinary but familiar men, a Jew, Izzy, an Italian, Dino, a Southerner, Reb Ralston, and a black man, Gabe, in extraordinary and horrible conditions. W.W. II was a war about race and Fury showed that a group of men of different backgrounds can truly become a band of brothers, This was 30 years before Stephen Ambrose wrote his book, The Band of Brothers about the 101st Airborne Division, known as the “Screaming Eagles.”
Of course, the arm forces during W.W. II were segregated. There could be no black sergeant leading such a group in W.W. II. So Lee and Kirby, and later Lee and Ayers and John Severin, worked to give Fury a background, showing him growing up in the lower east side on New York, just like Kirby did. They developed the conflict between black Gabe Jones and Southerner Reb Ralston and thy showed how they became comrades in arms and good friends. So for Sgt. Fury to make sense, Fury needs to be white, the story doesn’t make sense if he isn’t.
I should also note that comics featuring black characters were not always popular. Dell released Lobo in 1966, the story of a black western hero and stores in the south refused to display them. It was cancelled in two issues. So it took courage to do have a racial mixed Sgt. Fury.
So, how can Nick Fury be black?
Well, first, you have Samuel Jackson playing the role, how lucky can you get? But, honestly, my first thought was, what if it he played Gabe Jones? And make Gabe Jones the head of SHIELD. But then I saw the movie of Captain America and saw him fighting with the Howlers. Well, in 1965 you could have Nick Fury, veteran of W.W. II, now about 40, leading SHIELD. But while Cap was frozen, Fury wasn’t, and he, like me, would be too old today. So in the movie world there was no Sgt. Fury in 1941. It was as if the Living Eraser went back in time and eliminated him! So Fury came to life very recently.
Because Sgt. Fury was such an important part of comic book history and I sorry to see him go. But, I see, with great pride, Samuel Jackson up there, fifty years after the character was introduced. So maybe, in the end, maybe Nick Fury won his war after all. Thank you Stan and Jack!
With Black Widow and Hawkeye accounted for, our Avengers assembly is only awaiting one major cast member: Nick Fury. Although Fury is a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent rather than an Avenger, in the movie he is tasked with running the Avengers initiative, effectively making the Avengers assets of S.H.I.E.L.D. under Fury’s command. This is a different account of the Avengers’ origins than the original comic book, but it represents a natural development of the ongoing back-story of the relationship between the Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D.
From World War II Hero to Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Nick Fury’s adventures were initially set during World War II when he was first introduced in Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos #1 in May 1963. Here Fury led a racially integrated unit on raids against the Axis.
[Howling Commandos interiors courtesy of the collection of Barry Pearl--thanks, Barry!]
Stan Lee soon began writing Fury into the contemporary Marvel continuity by having him cross paths with the wartime predecessors of the Cold War intelligence community and with future Silver Age superheroes. Issue #3 (September 1963) saw Fury encountering a wartime Reed Richards, portrayed as an agent of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), the World War II prototype for the CIA. In issue #13 (December 1964), Fury fought side by side with the wartime Captain America and Bucky. By this time Cap had joined the Avengers.
Meanwhile the James Bond craze had reached its peak with the release of the third Connery Bond movie Goldfinger in 1964. Bond author Ian Fleming was recruited to contribute to the development of an espionage TV show called The Man from U.N.C.L.E., describing the adventures of a fictional international law enforcement agency called the United Network Command for Law and Enforcement.
In August 1965 Strange Tales #135 upgraded Nick Fury to Colonel and assigned him to work for S.H.I.E.L.D.: the Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage, Law-Enforcement Division. The acronym drew inspiration from U.N.C.L.E. as well as from the real-life NATO military command SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe).
Another inspiration for the name and other aspects of the concept was Fleming’s fictional terrorist organization S.P.E.C.T.R.E. (Special Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge, and Extortion). S.P.E.C.T.R.E. was a syndicate formed by former Nazi Gestapo officers, Soviet assassins, the Mafia, the French mob, Yugoslavian secret police, and Turkish heroin smugglers. As Bond battled S.P.E.C.T.R.E., Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D. fought a Nazi-descended terrorist organization called HYDRA (which is apparently not an abbreviation for anything).
S.H.I.E.L.D. was initially formed to fight HYDRA. After HYDRA assassinated the first Director of the organization (a title modeled on that of famed CIA Director Allen Dulles), Fury was promoted to Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.
S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers
When Fury first joined S.H.I.E.L.D., he learned that its Special Weaponry Section was run by Tony Stark, filling the role played by Q in the James Bond movies. Stark formed an early link between S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers, effectively serving as an undercover S.H.I.E.L.D. asset during his initial stint on the Avengers, which lasted to Avengers #16 (May 1965). This plausibly deniable relationship grew over time into an official relationship.
The Avengers were initially a private group funded by Stark and led by other team members–first Ant-Man and Wasp, and later Captain America. As a career soldier and a veteran of numerous intelligence operations, Cap formed another link between the Avengers and the US government.
Another bond was formed when former Soviet spy Black Widow came over to work for the U.S. intelligence community. From Avengers #29 on (June 1966), Widow periodically entered into Avengers storylines. She went undercover for S.H.I.E.L.D. in Avengers #38, during an assignment which required her to decline membership in the Avengers at that time. Later, after completing her assignment successfully, she assisted the Avengers several times, and formally joined the team in #111 (May 1973).
S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers teamed up to protect Earth from the alien Skrull menace during the Kree-Skrull War, a saga of events which began in Avengers #89 (June 1971) and lasted through #97 (March 1972). During the course of the war Iron Man rejoined the team.
The relationship between the Avengers and the U.S. government became formal after the National Security Agency (NSA) appointed an official U.S. Government Liaison to the Avengers, Henry Peter Gyrich (introduced in Avengers #165, November 1977). Gyrich, later identified as associated with the National Security Council (NSC), regarded the team as a threat to national security and sought to control their membership and activities. This created tension between the Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D., expressed during a Senate showdown between a S.H.I.E.L.D. witness called by Gyrich and Captain America in Avengers #190. The Avengers win their case the next issue after Gyrich is forced to rely on them to stop the Grey Gargoyle, and Gyrich is replaced as Avengers liaison by Raymond Sikorski.
Sikorski negotiated the relationship between the US government and the Avengers through a series of crises that redefined the team’s relationship to the U.S. and S.H.I.E.L.D. A US disarmament treaty with the declining Soviet Union in Avengers #327 (December 1990) led to the revocation of the Avengers’ corporate charter and a reformation of the team under a charter issued by the United Nations. The U.N. Avengers expanded internationally, only to disband during the Avengers Disassembled story arc (2004-2005).
Meanwhile, S.H.I.E.L.D. had also been shaken up. Following 9/11, Nick Fury’s concerns about US security laxity prompted him to conduct an unauthorized mission against Latveria during the Secret War limited series (2004-2005), which led to his resignation as S.H.I.E.L.D. Director.
Fury’s replacement Maria Hill opposed the reformation of the Avengers following the House of M story arc (2005). Despite Hill, a New Avengers team formed that included Iron Man and Captain America.
The events of the Civil War story arc (2006-2007) culminated with Tony Stark replacing Hill as Director of S.H.I.E.L.D and Hill being demoted to Deputy Director. With S.H.I.E.L.D. authority, Iron Man reformed the original Avengers as an official government team, chronicled in The Mighty Avengers (2007-2010). S.H.I.E.L.D. and Stark’s Avengers were officially joined for a brief time until the events of the Secret Invasion (2008-2009) led the President to dissolve S.H.I.E.L.D. The Avengers now drifted under the control of Norman Osborn’s agency H.A.M.M.E.R. during the Dark Avengers saga (2009-2010). To counter H.A.M.M.E.R., Fury reformed S.H.I.E.L.D. with Daisy Johnson as Director, as told in the Secret Warriors series.
In 2010 the Avengers were rebooted, following the Seige story arc and the cancellation of all current Avengers titles. A new Avengers team was launched as part of Marvel’s Heroic Age rebranding, with Maria Hill as team leader. The relationship between S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers was restored.
The S.H.I.E.L.D. relationship to the Avengers has been expanded into a new retelling of the team’s origins in films leading up to the current film. Appearances by Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury have served to link individual films together. Jackson first appeared after the credits in Iron Man (2008) to tell Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark, “I’m here to talk to you about the Avenger Initiative.” Follow-up appearances by Downey in Hulk (2008) and by Jackson in Iron Man 2010, Thor (2011), and Captain America: The First Avenger (2011) set the stage for the stars of these individual films to join together in The Avengers. Marvel’s film universe has now made Nick Fury the new leader of the Avengers.
With Iron Man we finished assembling the Avengers’ core members from the original comic book. However in the movie, we still have a few more members to add to the mix. Ant-Man and Wasp, the couple that founds the team in The Avengers #1, has been replaced in the movie by Hawkeye and Black Widow. Like Ant-Man and Wasp, and like their DC counterparts Green Arrow and Black Canary, Hawkeye and Black Widow have a stormy history that contribute to the dramatic tension that makes the Avengers a creatively conflicted team.
Stepping into the Black Widow’s Parlor
Marvel had published a Golden Age character named Black Widow starting with Mystic Comics #4 in August 1940. This Black Widow was created by George Kapitan, a penciler who wrote this particular issue, and artist Harry Sahle, then assisting Human Torch artist Carl Burgos. The Golden Age Black Widow was the alter ego of Claire Voyant, a possessed medium who helped Satan collect the souls of the damned. She was more like a female Ghost Rider than the current Black Widow character.
The current Black Widow first appeared in Iron Man’s storyline in Tales of Suspense #52, published with a cover date of April 1964. She is the alter ego of Natalia Romanova aka Natasha Romanoff, a Soviet agent. When she is assigned to help kidnap a defector, her mission requires her to infiltrate Stark Enterprises, bringing her into her first conflict with Iron Man. After several defeats against Iron Man, she attempts to secure a victory by recruiting the unwitting Hawkeye.
From Robin Hood to Hawkeye
Hawkeye’s roots trace back to the interpretation of the Robin Hood legend popularized in early Hollywood film. Silent film’s first major action star Douglas Fairbanks, who had previously introduced Zorro to the silver screen, brought Robin Hood to life in 1922 with an acrobatic, swashbuckling interpretation of the role. Fairbanks’ Robin Hood influenced Errol Flynn’s definitive 1938 portrayal of the character, which in turn set the stage for a series of archer superheroes who preceded Hawkeye. Flynn’s Robin Hood also influenced the character of Swordsman, Hawkeye’s mentor.
Fairbanks’ and Flynn’s action films inspired other characters cast in the same mold as his Zorro and Robin Hood who would influence the lineage of Hawkeye. In 1923 crime writer Edgar Wallace, whose most famous creation was King Kong, introduced an archer character called the Green Archer in a novel of the same name. The Green Archer employed archery and stealth to break up a gang of criminals who used a Gothic castle as a base to steal jewels and menace maidens. The Green Archer was made into a silent film in 1923 and into a talking serial in October 1940.
Earlier that year, Fawcett Comics had introduced an archer superhero called Golden Arrow in Whiz Comics #2, cover dated February 1940. Golden Arrow was Roger Parsons, the orphaned son of a balloonist couple who crashed in the American Western desert. Their stranded child was raised by an old prospector who taught him archery and raised him to right wrongs with the help of a stallion, White Wind. Golden Arrow went on to team up with Captain Marvel and Spy Smasher and become part of Fawcett’s superhero universe.
DC followed up with Green Arrow in More Fun Comics #73 in November 1941. Green Arrow was created by former pulp magazine literary agent Mort Weisinger, who would later edit Superman and Batman, and Action Comics artist George Papp, who later drew Superboy. Weisinger combined elements of the Green Archer with Batman, giving Green Arrow a billionaire alter-ego, technological gadgets, a sidekick, and an evil clown adversary.
Green Arrow survived the Golden Age by continuing as a backup in Superboy strips during the 1950s. He joined the Justice League in Justice League of America #4, published in May 1961. In 1969 he was reinterpreted by Neal Adams and Denny O’Neil as an anti-establishment anti-hero. In this incarnation he paired with Black Canary, a fellow Golden Age character who was likewise reinterpreted for the counter-culture. Green Arrow’s relationship with Black Canary initially emulated Hawkeye’s relationship with Black Widow, and later began to influence it, along with Hawkeye’s relationship with Mockingbird.
Hawkeye first appeared as an opponent for Iron Man in Tales of Suspense #57 in September 1964. Working at a fair as a trick shooter, Hawkeye witnesses Iron Man in action and is inspired to become a superhero. Designing trick arrows, he stops a jewel thief. But when the authorities mistake him for the thief, he becomes a fugitive and falls into the clutches of Black Widow. Widow tricks him into designing arrows to fight Iron Man and steal components of Iron Man’s armor.
Widow later defected to the United States, and eventually traded her original costume for a new uniform influenced by Emma Peel from the unrelated TV show The Avengers. But her initial contact with the Avengers and Hawkeye was tainted by her Soviet past. She was temporarily brainwashed into spying against America in The Avengers #29 (June 1966) and tried to recruit Hawkeye again. Although she later came back to the American side, to eventually join the Avengers on a permanent basis in #111 (May 1973), her relationship with Hawkeye was haunted by memories of betrayal.
This complicated history between Hawkeye and Black Widow was developed in the 2010 cartoon The Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, where their mistrust hinders a S.H.I.E.L.D. mission. It lies in the back-story of the new Avengers movie, where it adds another layer to the complexity of the relationships that form the team.
The next Avenger on our assembly line is Iron Man. When The Avengers movie began development, Robert Downey, Jr. initially thought Iron Man should be given the main role in the opening sequence, but as the film developed, it became clear that Iron Man needed to be more of a team player to make the movie work. This was a case of life imitating art, replicating the comic book development where Captain America proved the better team leader while Iron Man stepped into a strong supporting role. Initially helping Thor provide muscle for the team, Iron Man gradually took on the broader role of the Avengers’ “hardware supplier,” serving as the team’s financier, landlord, equipment supplier, social connection, and government contact. In the process, he developed dramatically into a more complete character, providing a platform for making the Avengers a more dynamic team on film.
Iron Man’s Early Role
In The Avengers #1, Iron Man initially stumbled into Loki’s scheme accidentally by picking up Rick Jones’ Teen Brigade radio alert about the Hulk’s alleged rampage. Iron Man was curious how his power would match up against Hulk’s:
As he soon learned after helping Ant-Man and Wasp track down the Green Goliath, no one is stronger than Hulk (even before Hulk’s strength had reached current levels):
Fortunately, before Hulk turned Iron Man into scrap metal, Thor revealed Loki’s role, and in the Mighty Marvel Manner, former combatants joined against a common foe:
Thus, Iron Man became an Avenger, initially following the lead of Ant-Man and Wasp.
Later Developments
Ant-Man’s problems establishing an identity left the Avengers with a leadership void. Meanwhile Hulk left the team in issue #2. Iron Man then got suspended in #7 for failing to answer an Avengers call for help in Tales of Suspense #56 because he was too busy engaging in self-indulgence. Finally in #16 Iron Man left the team for personal reasons, along with the other founding members, as Marvel’s editors made the decision to develop these characters in separate strips and introduce new characters in The Avengers. Leadership fell to Captain America, introduced in #4, who was joined by new members such as Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch. These formed the nucleus of the new team.
Iron Man, however, continued to play an important supporting role. Periodically aiding and rejoining the team, he continued to finance them, provide their headquarters, and supply equipment. As the back-story surrounding his industrialist alter-ego developed in his own strip, Tony Stark and his father Howard Stark gradually grew into billionaire inventor figures modeled on Howard Hughes, straddling the border between Wall Street and the espionage world. Like a more deeply conflicted version of Bruce Wayne, Stark began to assume a role similar to that Oliver Queen later filled for the Justice League on Smallville, where Queen’s billionaire assets helped counter those wielded by Lex Luthor. Corrupt corporate rivals Justin Hammer and Obadiah Stane served as Stark’s Luthor. This development overlapped with Avengers storylines featuring conflicts with Stark’s corporate enemies and allied shadow government forces within S.H.I.E.L.D. and the NSA.
This interpretation of Iron Man as rake turned reluctant hero is the one that has been developed in multimedia adaptations of Iron Man and made its way into the movies. The short 1966 Iron Man segments of The Marvel Super Heroes cartoon did not have time or inclination to develop Tony Stark’s character much, focusing more on battle scenes.
In contrast, the Iron Man cartoon that aired from 1994 to 1996 portrayed Stark as a James Bond type of hero who mixed self-sacrificial nobility with spoiled self-indulgence. In this incarnation, Stark alienated his best friend and carried on romantic relationships with several superheroines simultaneously when he wasn’t saving the world from the Mandarin and M.O.D.O.K.
Robert Downey, Jr. has captured this side of Iron Man’s character and given it a definitive stamp. Downey, a seasoned comic actor since his early Saturday Night Live stint, has given Stark a sense of humor that expands and deepens the personality of the original character. Downey’s Stark can range from arrogantly sarcastic to charmingly witty to resolutely heroic, with an undercurrent of restrained romanticism befitting Stark’s aversion to commitment. This complex characterization helps provide a foundation for developing the Avengers as a drama-driven team held together more by conflict than cooperation. In this way Iron Man supplies not only the physical hardware but also the dramatic platform that makes the Avengers Earth’s Mightiest Heroes.
The Avengers movie is on track to recover its $220 million budget during its first week, pulling in $178.4 overseas before even hitting the US. For a detailed breakdown read the analysis at Box Office Mojo.
Thanks to Vinnie from Silver State Chronicles once again for directing my attention to a new Avengers clip of Iron Man vs. Thor–I’ll let it speak for itself:
When Martin Goodman discovered that the Justice League was a big seller, he asked Stan Lee to create a comic with a group of super-heroes: The Fantastic Four. But The Avengers are the real counterpart to the JLA. Just like the JLA, The Avengers featured marquee and secondary characters joined together to form a super-hero group. But things here were different. At the end of the Avengers’ second issue The Hulk leaves. In issue #4, Captain America returns but does not have his own comic. By issue #16, the original members are completely gone. This was so new for me. The Avengers rose to great heights when Roy Thomas and John Buscema took over. It is an incredible feat for one artist to draw all those characters so well.
There is something out of whack about super-hero groups. Superman would probably consider Green Arrow, a liability on mission. Members neither knew each other true identities, of cared to.
The Avengers were different. They showed up in each other’s comic. But it was not without its awkwardness. An opening scene in Avengers #7 struck me as funny. Iron Man, fighting the Unicorn (Tales of Suspense #56) and having heart problem and does not answer The Avengers call. So they suspend him. From what? Do The Avengers meet in the mansion and play pool together? He’s suspended from helping them save the Earth, so what good does that do? Do they withhold his pay? Why doesn’t he say he was fighting a bad guy, after all it made all the newspapers.
Don Heck: “Stan called up one day and said, ‘You’re doing The Avengers.’” And I said, ‘Great…who are The Avengers?’ It was another book Kirby had started and I guess he got too busy so they gave it to me. Stan decided to focus a little more on the characters and less on the fight scenes and that made it really a challenge and one I enjoyed. ” Inspired by Milton Caniff, Heck drew each character with great detail but he needed to be paired with a strong writer. Don Heck was a fine artist and a good storyteller but without a good writer his stories were not memorable. Things begin to click when John Buscema replaces Don Heck and is paired with the right inker. The stories get better and better, building to the Kree-Skrull War, the highlight of the Thomas era (issues #89-97).
Stan Lee gave up writing all the team books (except the Fantastic Four). He leaves The Avengers in issue #34. New writer, Roy Thomas needed a bit of time to cook as a writer but was slowly developing. Roy said of Don Heck: “He didn’t add a lot of great imaginative elements, but if I gave him the bare bones of a story, he’d fill in the details nicely “. The Avengers never relied upon the narrow formulas that virtually all of the JLA stories were based on.
Avengers #4:So, Who is Captain America?
“Who am I? For a moment, I had almost forgotten myself! But I am not lucky enough to forget forever!—To forget that I was once the man the world called—Captain America! “
“Jack Kirby drew the original Captain America during the Golden Age of Comics…And now he draws it again. Stan Lee’s first script during those fabled days was Captain America—And now he authors it again, in this, The Marvel Age. ”
Stan Lee 2004: “One great thing about The Avengers team is the fact that we could always change the line-up of heroes, ” Lee explained. “We were able to send Iron Man on vacation and have Captain America come in to replace him. Then we had them kick out the Hulk because he became too unmanageable. Since kicking a Hulk out isn’t easy to do, it became the basis for an action-packed story. ”
1965: Question “In late 1953 there was a revival of Marvel heroes which featured Captain America, Sub-Mariner, and the Human Torch. What do you think kept Marvel’s “second heroic age ” from catching on? “
Stan Lee: “Well, they were written the way they had been written years ago, in an old fashioned style. I’m not saying this in a derogatory way. It was the style that had been used years ago. It didn’t seem like there was any reason for new readers to get excited about the stories, because they were no different than the old stories. So when we saw that we weren’t getting anywhere, we just discontinued them. “
”Do you plan to have the revised CAPTAIN America fighting the Russian communists or the Red Chinese? “
Stan: No.
“Are you planning to give CAPTAIN AMERICA his own magazine? “
Stan: “There is only one thing stopping us, Jack (Kirby) doesn’t have the time to draw it, and I don’t have tile tire to write it. But, sooner or later, whether it be a year from now, or ten years from now, we will find the time to do it! ”
Amazing Heroes 1966
Joe Simon: “Now the first issue of Captain America had Hitler as the villain. And the whole reason we put that out was because America was in a patriotic frenzy Also, everybody was looking for interesting villains. Bob Kane and Bill Finger and the others we coming up with some very interesting ones, and they were selling. So I thought of what kind of a villain to come up with? And there was only one that the whole world hated- and that was Adolph Hitler. So he was our villain. In fact, we had the villain first and then we came up with Captain America. “
Stan Lee 1967: “…We’ve revived Captain America, Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch, but we’ve changed them. Take Captain America; he is basically the same but we made him into sort of a Hamlet, always soliloquizing having his secret sorrows and psychological hang-up problems. ”
Stan, 1974: “I tried to figure how many fallible features I could give Spider-Man. Almost all of our characters. Iron Man with his weak heart, and the fact that he’s a munitions maker and a capitalist and people hate him and think he’s a fascist. And Captain America who felt he was an anachronism because here he is a big patriotic figure at a time when patriotism really isn’t in vogue…And I suddenly realized I was enjoying what I was doing. I could have been writing movies: I was worrying about characterization, I was worrying about dialogue… “
1975: JEAN THOMAS: “Joe (Simon), I’d like to know what you would think about creating a character such as Captain America today. How would you make a Captain America relevant to 1974? Would he wear red, white and blue?
JOE SIMON: “Well, I just read somewhere that in analyzing Captain America that he is really fascist . . . and he has all the ways of a Nazi Superman. Did you read that, Stan? So I guess I would try to do something with him more on the free-thinker style. I don’t think I would be a super-type hero. It would be more like Thoreau. Well, it’s a camp thing now, isn’t it, the red white and blue? But the uniform’ valuable, isn’t it, Stan? “
LEE: “I never knew how important uniforms were until we brought out the first Fantastic Four, and thought we were being so clever by not giving them costumes. Boy, we got an avalanche of mail saying we love the book but we’ll never buy one again unless you put them in little long underwear suits. I gotta mention one thing, talking about Joe Simon. When I first started here, and think I was still wearing whole and playing with a yo-yos I walked in and there was the whole staff . . . which consisted of Joe Simon, hiding behind the Biggest cigar anybody ever saw, and Jack Kirby. But for the first three weeks I only saw the top of his head, cause he was always crouched over the drawing board while Joe was giving him orders that Jack never particularly listened to. “
Stan 1998 “One time I gave Gene a Captain America story plot. I said I want to get a few scenes of Captain America or Steve Rogers just walking in the street and just soliloquizing… thinking to himself he feels a little bit like an acronym, a man out of time… here he is in the present yet he’s a guy from the past and this was troubling him.
When Gene drew it he gave me three pages of Cap just walking in the street and I had to fill up the thought balloons with thoughts. I only meant a couple of panels, but again only Gene could have drawn three pages of a guy walking in the street! ”
Stan 2000: “The big strips that they had in those days were Captain America, the Human Torch and the Sub-Mariner I worked on all of them And I loved Captain America I loved the way Jack Kirby drew him. To me, Captain America was the Errol Flynn of the comic books. “
Lee 1970: “In fact we’re big in ecology stories today, in Iron Man comics, Daredevil. . . . The one in Sub-Mariner dealt with the so-called surface race, which is ourselves, polluting the seas, and Sub-Mariner, who as everyone knows is the king of Atlantis, he took a dim view about all this. We’ve had, as I’ve mentioned, stories about campus riots. We’ve had Captain America involved in student dissents. We’ve tried to do more than just involve the characters in these contemporary problems. We try to also show how our characters themselves react to the problems. And well, one thing that I try and do in my own limited way is to show that nothing is really all black and white. Captain America can’t—although he’s considered an establishment figure really—he’s beginning to have second thoughts about the whole thing. He realizes he can’t really side with the establishment 100 percent. He realizes that there’s a lot of things that are wrong, and it seems that many of these things that are wrong, well, it seems to be no real simple, legal, effortless way to correct them short of extreme measures. By the same token he’s always fought for law and order. He’s afraid that too much violence will breed too much violence and where do you stop it. And, well, obviously this is really my own philosophy too. I have the toughest problem in the world in taking a definite stand on almost anything, and I have ambivalent feelings about virtually everything, and this is either going to make our stories extremely dull or extremely realistic. I don’t know. “
1970:
Question: “Do they (younger readers) pick up on politics though? “
Stan Lee: “Not as much as the older readers, no. But they’ll say things like “Sub-Mariner’s trunks should always be purple, but in one panel they were green. ” Well, you can only print so many of those kinds of letters. It doesn’t make for a real philosophical situation. So for that reason we do print the more interesting letters, which are nine times out of ten from older readers. But to answer your question a little more specifically, I guess I’ve strayed all around the point. We do get, an unexpected—unexpected, a few years ago—amount of letters from our readers which deal with politics. In fact, I just wrote a Soapbox column for a future bullpen in which I mention a fantastic thing, in Captain. . . . Oh, I might preface this by saying selfishly I use the letters to help me edit the magazine. It shows me what the readers want and don’t want. And for the most part I try and follow their dictates because they’re the ones that buy the books. Well, I’ve been very frustrated with our Captain America magazine. I find it’s as if I’ve been left alone on an ice floe somewhere and I got to shift for myself. I don’t know what the readers want because every letter we’ve gotten for the past three months for Captain America has merely dealt with political issues. Nobody’s said a word about the stories or the artwork themselves. Now I don’t know if people are just reading the magazine just to pick out whatever philosophy or political connotations there might be. I don’t know if anyone cares if we have super villains or if there’s any action or anything. I put a little notice in the Soapbox asking a few readers to just kinda drop us a line and let us know if they are still reading the book. “
2000
Host: So you brought back two of those right away but you waited two years to bring back Captain America. Was it the time?
Stan: No, I, I couldn’t think of a good way to, it was easy to bring back the Torch and the Sub‑Mariner. I had to find a good way to bring back Captain America. I couldn’t think of a way to do it. I wanted to, and then it just seemed natural to bring him back in the Avengers because I thought of a story where they find him frozen in ice or something. I forget what happened, and they needed another member in the team and it just worked out and they took him, and with the Avengers I had a bunch of other characters for him to play against and react to and – Captain America really needs other people to, to talk to and to be contrasted with ’cause by himself he, he doesn’t have quite as colorful a personality as some of our other characters.
Host: Oh, I see. So it, it sort of –
Stan: It was heroic but he’s not as unique in a sense. He’s more a, a typical strong athletic guy who wants to do good things.
Host: Now I remember you had a story with Captain America that wasn’t really Captain America before that, as a sort of a tryout to check reader response.
Stan: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. That was quite a while ago.
Host: And I’m wondering, why you did that with Captain America instead of just sort of tossing him out there like you did with the Sub‑Mariner for example.
Stan: It just seemed like a – Maybe I wasn’t as sure of Captain America. I was, I was so sure the Sub‑Mariner would work and I, I just knew the Torch would work. Captain America we had – Over the years, you know, he was probably the first, one of the first characters Marvel ever did and after the war he lost popularity and they dropped the book. Then they brought him back a few years later, dropped the book. I think they brought him back a third time and they dropped the book. So I think I was a little bit diffident. I wasn’t, I wasn’t that sure it would work. I wanted to wait until I could get just the right story.
Host: That was an interesting time period with, you know, the ’60s was starting up and music was changing, politics were changing, the profile of the United States population was changing and, and so it certainly wasn’t the same type of country you were doing Captain America in back in the 40s.
Stan: That’s right. It was even difficult to bring back a patriotic character because the, the country wasn’t in the mood for that kind of patriotism at the time we brought back Captain America. They, they weren’t interested in the Army. Nobody wanted us to be at war, certainly, and there was a lot of disenchantment with the government and with the establishment, and Captain America was so much an establishment character.
Host: And yet you certainly made it work.
Stan: Well, what I did, or what I tried to do, was give him a problem. He felt he was out of sync with the time he lived in. He felt he was an anachronism. He realized that he was thinking like somebody in the late ’30s and early ’40s, but here he was living in the ’60s, and he felt he’d never quite be on the same wavelength as the people – You know he had been, I think, frozen in a glacier for about 20 years or something and consequently he would agonize about the fact that he didn’t feel he fit in. I remember, I think there was one line I wrote that I liked very much where he said maybe he should have battled less and questioned more, and I think that was the philosophy we tried to give him but he couldn’t really change his nature.
Host: I, I guess it’s, you know people who do comics are a little different from the mainstream and so is this station.
Stan: Yeah, they’re a little different from the whole human race I think. **** say that about the station.
Host: Another thing you introduced quite heavily in the Marvel Comics was, there was a lot of sort of understated religion going on. Your characters were more spiritual than really any other characters. I remember one particular line with, that Dr. Doom had just gotten the Silver Surfer’s powers and Sue Storm says he’s all powerful and I think Reed came in and said no, no there’s only who’s all powerful and his only weapon is love.
Stan: Yeah, you know, it’s funny. I’ve had that line tossed back at me by so many people at so many colleges. I, I’m really very happy with that. I, I always liked that line and I’m glad you sort of remembered it. Well, I don’t know. I never tried to be that spiritual or religious. I think maybe I tried to be moralistic. I felt that some many comics were just stories of good guys fighting bad guys and I know, I knew and I know now, that despite the fact that we have a very large older readership, there were always a lot of younger readers reading Marvel’s books and I, if I ever could throw in a line or something that maybe would do some good, you know, I tried to do that.
Host: Yeah, I noticed there was, there was a lot of that, very understated but it was, is certainly there. You may not have noticed the first time you read it but the second time your read the stories, it came out, that sort of spirituality of your characters.
Mike O’Dell: “Jack, you drew and invented, if I’m not mistaken, Captain America, one of the earliest superheroes, who’s now plying his trade in Marvel comics. How did Captain America come to be, and does he have any particular relationship to your other superheroes? “
JACK KIRBY: “I guess Captain America, like all of the characters come to be, because of the fact that there is a need for them, somebody needed Captain America, just as the public needed Superman. When Superman came on the scene, the public was ready for him, and they took him. And so, from Superman, who didn’t exactly satiate the public’s need for the superhero, so spawned the rest of them. The rest of them all came from Superman, and they all had various names, and various backgrounds, and they embraced various creeds. And Captain America came from the need for a patriotic character because the times at that time were in a patriotic stir. The war was coming on, and the corny cliche, the war humor, quite a bit of humor, to them, there is an underlying sincerity. We take them seriously, and I think the readers are aware of this. “
1993
HOST: Well, whose basic concept was Captain America? Who did what?
Kirby: It was both of us. Because we’re both patriotic. Those were patriotic times and Captain America was an actual offshoot of those feelings. It’s hard to conceive about times when, when a guy like Hitler was grabbing everything in sight.
HOST: Well I know that you’re Jewish, am I correct?
Kirby: Yes, I am.
HOST: I want you to know that I do appreciate the…at least as much as a person my age could possibly appreciate, those times. Now I wasn’t alive at that time, but I do believe I appreciate those times, at least to some degree.
Kirby: Well, I can tell you that I came close up to that kind of thing. We had Nazi’s in New York, y’know. They’d come up to the office and I would deliver my work, and they’d say “…well, were gonna beat the Hell outta’ you! We’ll wait for you downstairs! ” And I was as stupid as they were and I said “…O.K., wait for me down there and I’ll come down and see you guys! ” And I would deliver my work to Marvel, which was Timely…And I would go downstairs, but nobody was there.
HOST: They wouldn’t hang around!
Kirby: No, they wouldn’t hang around. But, they had big meetings in Madison Square Garden.
HOST: They were called…they were called Bundists? Or Brownshirts?
Kirby: No, they were just Nazis. The brownshirts were in Germany.
HOST: In Germany. Oh, O.K. Alright.
Kirby: Yeah. But Roosevelt got rid of them. He drafted everybody.
HOST: Even the American Nazi’s?!
Kirby: Everybody!
HOST: I’ve often thought that Siegel and Shuster’s creation of Superman was part of a reaction to the news coming out of Germany.
Kirby: Well, I just don’t know. We weren’t close friends. I knew them, as you know fellow artists contributing work to the magazines.
HOST: You created Captain America before America got into the war.
Kirby: Oh Yes! And I used to put Hitler on the cover and Captain America beating him up and I created an awful ruckus!
HOST: Did you do this anticipating the fact that we were going to get into that war?
Kirby: Well, it was nothing that I expected but…no, it was just a product of the times. Let’s face it, Hitler was in the news every day. And he was doing these things every day. Forming concentration camps and just grabbing everything in Europe and creating a general turbulence. And in fact, he was reaching out toward Greece and India…well, evidently, he wanted the world! And there was nobody to stop him. And that kind of thing was in the papers every day and it was the thing to follow up on because the American government was very adamant and…
HOST: To stay out of the war?
Kirby: Oh no! They were adamant with Hitler and they told him so. And it seemed like things were gonna happen. I collected those times in my Captain America feature.
HOST: Were the sales strong from the very beginning?
Kirby: They were very, very strong.
HOST: From the very beginning?
Kirby: Yes, from the very beginning. And Captain America seemed …well, there was patriotism, throughout the States and it was in the very air itself. And Captain America was a very natural output of that kind of feeling. So Captain America did very, very well.
HOST: Of course, shortly after the Captain America feature first appeared the publishers came out with dozens of variations on your theme, on your Captain America.
Jack Kirby: Captain America for us was a kind of a landmark in our own lives because it did well. It was a very, very good and it gave us a chance to exercise our own fantasies ’cause we believe in the validity of comics because we believe that every one of us has to balance whatever we see in reality with a little bit of fantasy. I believe that’s how we live. Speaking for myself I’m never going to battle it out with six, six or eight guys, and because I know if I do I’m really going to get clobbered. But I know that in doing Captain America I can, I can take a lot of license and, and experience that kind of thing and have a lot of fun with it. Captain America was really a, a sort of choreographed ballet and it, it was a – especially in the fight scenes and it avoided the ugly part of life and it was still, and it’s still what I, what I thought was the, was the fine part of human endeavor in any situation. So it was an enjoyment for me to do especially when I came back to Marvel there in the late ’50s and began to do Captain America again. And I had the opportunity of doing him as a human being because he’d been gone for a certain period of time and revived and I had to create a link between this span of time, and I had the opportunity of creating another facet to his character. I, I enjoyed doing that. So if you have any questions or if you have any insights that you’d like to voice yourself, I take this opportunity if you would like to add a little to possibly what I’ve said.
Yes; I’ll give you the definitive answer on that. I am Captain America in that, in that instance. I feel that whoever is involved in, whoever is involved in it and has sincerely tried to create something good, will put himself in that specific situation and come up with a, very human solution because it would be their particular solution; they very own.
Joe Simon 1981
”Let me tell you first about how we created Captain America…This country was not at war [Captain America’s first appearance in March of 1941 preceded by seven months the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor which predicated America’s entry into World War II]. Yes, there was a war over in Europe, but there was a lot of controversy in this country about whether we should get involved. There was a lot of opposition…lots of demonstrations and marches and rallies by the America First Group, the American Nazi Party, the Nazi Fund. The opponents to the war were all quite well organized. We wanted to have our say, too. We didn’t want to go to war, but we felt very intense about what was going on over in Europe. So we had this new character, Captain America, reflect our attitudes about the war. He didn’t want to fight, but he knew that the Nazis had to be stopped and he was prepared to do his best to stop them.
When the first issue came out we got a lot of bad mail, a lot of threatening letters and hate mail. Some people really opposed what Cap stood for. I could never understand that because he stood for America—Freedom and justice. How can anybody be against that? But anyway after the first issue we got so many threats that for a while we had a police man in the office watching over us. It was kind of funny. There we were working on a comic book and there was this guard making sure that we weren’t attacked or something.
I guess we did quite a bit to promote patriotism in this country. We felt very good about making a political statement through [Cap] and taking a stand. It was a bit frightening, though, what with all the reaction we got. The book sold well, it was a tremendous success so that proved we had more friends than enemies.
We often used Adolph Hitler as our prime villain. Now other companies had been doing very well with colorful villains—The Batman in particular had the Penguin and the Joker—but we wanted to use a real live villain. Cap might have been only a symbol but we wanted him to fight a real menace, something that was a real threat to our country. So we used Adolph Hitler. We had him on the first couple of covers. Captain America was always crashing through windows and beating him up.
Captain America was very much a reflection of his times. He was patriotic when the country was patriotic. He was willing to fight for his country when his country was getting ready to get into a horrible war. We saw him as a political statement fleshed out to be an active force. We would have him go through an exaggerated adventure and his actions and the story would all be making a political statement.
I don’t know what I’d do if I had to do him today. I’ve lost touch with the book. I haven’t read it for a long time.
But anyway, to get back to Captain America…I guess I’d have to first read it and see what he’s been doing all these years. I haven’t followed the book so I don’t know what people have had him do or have been doing to him. I think the important thing would be to keep him contemporary. Get him involved in adventures based on real world events. See, Captain America is the expression of the American ideal. He stands for what America should do if we could do anything we wanted. He’s our nation’s wish fulfillment.
For plots I guess I’d draw on all the interesting things going on in the world that you could turn into the springboard for a story. I’d probably have him get involved with real things: the hostage thing, terrorism, streets gangs, that sort of thing. I would get him involved with what is really going on today.
The character has a real pull. It’s been around too long just to be tied to one time period. He can be adapted to fit into any situation, any social climate. He’s a reflection of us. I think he’s our ultimate fantasy. He’s a comic book character, an ideal, a political statement, whatever, who can get involved in an adventure that involves real contemporary problems. Superman can’t fight a mugger because he’s too strong. He has to fight aliens and things. But Captain America is just like us. He can fight a mugger and it would be an exciting adventure fantasy that really has meaning because it is still real, still familiar. I think that is the key to the character. I think that is why there is still a Captain America. “
Jim Steranko
Steranko: I had been after Captain America for awhile. He wanted to give me something and that was it. I had wanted to do Captain America a whole lifetime, because I grew up with comics in the forties. I remember the original Captain America. It was a lifetime ambition of mine to do that strip. I enjoyed doing it. I don’t think I ever got it precisely right, the way I saw it in my head, but each issue was getting closer to the way I wanted to see Captain America. I would have enjoyed doing more issues of Cap, but, again, they broke up, I think, my run. They threw in one Kirby story in between and the same thing happened. I simply didn’t want my issues broken up with others. I thought it lessened the impact — of the month after month, continuous story line. I had some good ideas coming up for them, though. Another thing, now that I’m thinking about it, Stan wanted Rick Jones to be worked into the strip. Now they’ve dropped him. I had to work in the background and think of things for him to do. It slowed up the ideas that I wanted to do for Captain America, myself. It was a gratuitous story to get this kid working as Cap’s pal again, took up too much story line, although I was pleased to accept the challenge of it.
Englehart 1980
Captain America was a lot of fun for me to write. I think Captain America was another case in which everybody involved with it was in the right place he had to be. Marshall or Frank or Gene do put something extra into it, so there is a difference, but I was very happy with the way Captain America turned out.
I don’t see him being at all immature. Captain America, in a sense, I might say that about because he still believes in the ideal in the fact of adverse reality. Captain America, as I did him, said in the final analysis, “A lot of people don’t believe in this, but I have to, and I do. ” The Batman does not fly in the face of reality. The Batman is reality incarnate in the crazy world. I think he knows himself better than anybody else. The Batman fully understands what he’s doing, why he’s doing it, but he’s grown up. He’s not still ‘a little kid living out a childhood battle. He’s devoted his life to it, but he’s now an adult living with his full capacities. Captain America had been a liberal long before I got him, with his black partner and cleaning up the slums. That was who he was. As for my personal political beliefs, I believe in pragmatism. If you need to tighten things up to get things accomplished, then do it. If you need to liberalize them because there’s too much fascism going on, then let’s do it. It comes back to what I said about the Batman: it’s figuring out I don’t buy it, particularly with Captain America. He isn’t the Batman, he isn’t Mr. Fantastic, or Daredevil. As Captain America he’s got to be involved with America. That book — and this is another of my accomplishments in comics — was bottom of the line in sales for years. Stan obviously didn’t care at all. When it came time to devoting his energies, Captain America was getting the least amount of it. For fifty issues it had just been lying there; there was no sense of why this guy had to exist. He was just another guy in a costume who shouted slogans once in a while. That seems to me to be what he’s, come back to, too. People think that if he’s Captain America, he has to go around saying vaguely ridiculous patriotic things. That’s not it. The guy is committed to America. So first of all you have to figure out what America is and what he would be thinking about. Then, he doesn’t have to be ridiculous; he doesn’t have to be a cornball, patriotic banana. He can be whatever he’s supposed to be at the time to get America across. When I took it over, they told me that the only Captain America stories that had ever sold were the Sleeper stories in Tales of Suspense. Everything else had just died. By the time I got it, it was in danger of being cancelled. Within six months I had it at the top of the line and it stayed at the top of the line the whole time I wrote it. As soon as I left, it went right back into the toilet, and it’s been at the bottom of the line ever since.
If your name is Captain America, you should be political. The only thing I object to is that if you’re fitting it into continuity, it’s not your character and I think it would be wrong to come in and say, “Okay, he’s been liberal for four years but I’m a conservative writer. Therefore, he’s now conservative. ” If I thought he should get more conservative, I’d take six months to get him there. I’d give him a reason to reevaluate himself. But you can’t change him overnight if there’s any sense of real continuity, any coherence in the Marvel Universe.
DAVE: There was a period in your Captain America series where you had Cap become Nomad, and in a sense, by taking away the stars and stripes, intentionally or not, you were making a comment. Was this disillusionment with America related to your Army years?
STEVE: No. I was disillusioned with the war.’ I was disillusioned with a lot of what America became, but I still believe a lot of what Captain America believes.
I believe that this country is something that always has the possibility of becoming a really wonderful place. And I think it’s a continuous struggle between the ideals and the negative parts of capitalism.
So I felt a lot like Cap did. That I’d been betrayed by the whole Watergate trip.
But when I traveled in Europe—and most Americans never get out of America—and saw how other countries worked, I liked America better. I appreciate America more now,
Captain America is a special case. He’s not Daredevil and he’s not Batman. The book had been at the bottom of the Marvel line and in danger of cancellation until I took it over. It went to the top of the line within six months and stayed there as long as I had it. It immediately went back into the toilet as soon as I left.
I think the reason for that is not so much anything obvious, but that in the Captain America’s coming out today, they treat him as if he’s a naive person who makes cornball slogans. And I don’t think anybody out there reading the book is going to get really interested in somebody we’ve already established is kind of a dolt.
My Captain America believed what he stood for. I don’t think he was corny because what he was saying was decent. It was appropriate for him.
Batman, on the other hand, is a much more right wing, fascist-type character. although I don’t think of Batman as fascist. The Batman was a different character and he had to be written differently.
But Captain America had to be taken from a certain approach. and it has been the only successful approach to him in the last 30 years.
Englehart: “In the entire history of Captain America — or at least since World War II ended — it only sold when I was writing it, as far as I know. Again, the approach I tried to take was, “Why is this guy different from the rest of them? ” In Doctor Strange I just had to work a little harder to educate myself. “
“Captain America is much more changeable as time goes on. The guy that I wrote in the midst of the Watergate situation was basically against all that sort of stuff, but I really wouldn’t have any sort of quarrel with a more right-wing, patriotic Captain America in the ’40s. I do think the Cap I wrote would have been smart enough in the ’50s to know that this red-baiting stuff was getting out of hand and wouldn’t have been going around fighting the Commies all the time like he did in the books.
Thompson: You wrote a story about it.
Yeah. And if it turned out that the entire government was taken over by pinkos–as an example here, right–and it got to the point where the best thing that could be done for America was to become very intense and very conservative, I would think Captain America would go in that direction, and I would have no trouble writing a conservative Captain America if that seemed to be the best thing for America at the time. ”
John Romita
”I remember buying Captain America #1. I loved it when I first saw it. I was also a big fan of Charlie Biro’s books; the Daredevil was my favorite character. Biro was, I think, one of the least credited geniuses that we have. I think he did everything that Stan Lee did years later, but nobody noticed it, and nobody mentioned it. He was a genius. I think he should be documented as a legitimate genius, even though he was a strictly commercialized guy. The work he did is still memorable to me fifty, sixty years later. I remember George Tuska’s work from the early 1940’s. Those are the guys that I idolized from the beginning.
”When I got married, it was the first time I slept in a steam-heated room. My wife and I were both ‘cold flat babies.’ I bought Captain America #1 and Superman #1 when I was eight years old, and I traced them a thousand times. I had the foresight to have my Dad buy me two copies. I put one in a bag and traced the other till there was no wax on the page. ” Unfortunately, he groans, “I never kept ‘em! “
1972
GERRY CONWAY: During the fifties you drew Captain America for Timely, didn’t you?
ROMITA: Right. Before that, I did some war books, some westerns, a little romance work. And suddenly’ they revised a few of the super-hero titles—Sub-Mariner, the Human Torch, and Captain America. So I did a short Captain America feature in Young Men, for about three or four issues, and then Stan decided to go for a full book, and I did it—it didn’t run very long—less than a year.
CONWAY: So until the sixties, you didn’t really have much contact with the comic book super-hero.
ROMITA: Right. It was always my natural inclination, for in comic books I was a Kirby fan, and in syndication I was a Caniff fan—so if I was working in comics, I assumed I should work like Kirby, and when I got a chance at Captain America, I became so excited I tensed up—and it was really bad stuff. I had dreams of getting loose and starting to do Kirby stuff, just pure, wild, out-of-the-panel Kirby action—and then they dropped the book. And I was back doing romance, and westerns—I was stuck in westerns for about two years. And I always had that urge, that desire to do super-heroes, but I never got a chance.
